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post #11 of 23 Old 04-15-2009, 09:54 AM
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+1 for testing....i have the same stoptech posiquiet on my Spec V brembos and love how they perform but i still get a decent amount of dust...

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post #12 of 23 Old 04-15-2009, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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+1 for testing....i have the same stoptech posiquiet on my Spec V brembos and love how they perform but i still get a decent amount of dust...
Really? Are you doing the semi-metallic or the ceramic? We've found the SM are almost nill on dust for the scoobies.

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post #13 of 23 Old 04-15-2009, 10:36 AM
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Great write-up Tony thanks for this.. looking forward to reading about your testing results... Just curious did you do any baseline brake tests before chaning the pad?
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post #14 of 23 Old 04-15-2009, 11:13 AM
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semi metallic....but i still have the stock type rotors which may be where it is coming from...(i swear my rotor wears down faster than my pads...only had to change pads twice in 70,000+ miles and rotors three times)

"You know what? This will decimate all... after we put about fifteen grand or more under the hood. If we have to, overnight some parts from Korea."

SpecRacer: "wow...you guys pay WAY to much attention to male models...."
Lord Calvert: "Thats not just some male model its FABIO! "
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NateV: "Why don't people put the innercooler on the intake side? Wouldn't that cool your air going in, then have another innercooler afterward?"

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post #15 of 23 Old 04-15-2009, 11:33 AM Thread Starter
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Great write-up Tony thanks for this.. looking forward to reading about your testing results... Just curious did you do any baseline brake tests before chaning the pad?
No. These are more of a street pad than performance pad. We wanted to see if they would fit correctly, which they do. We have other pads on the way that will be performance pads. HP+'s and HT10's specifically.

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post #16 of 23 Old 04-15-2009, 01:42 PM
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post #17 of 23 Old 04-15-2009, 03:25 PM
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Thanks again Tony & TIC, you're winning me over. Keep it coming, I'm lovin it. I could already do a brake job, but I can see where this is going. Also glad to see you're on top of a fix for the trimmed pads. This will go along with the suspension fix you are preparing & be done right off the bat. I was wanting to install stainless steel braided brake lines & switch over to Motul DOT4 brake fluid, give me your thoughts.

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post #18 of 23 Old 04-16-2009, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks again Tony & TIC, you're winning me over. Keep it coming, I'm lovin it. I could already do a brake job, but I can see where this is going. Also glad to see you're on top of a fix for the trimmed pads. This will go along with the suspension fix you are preparing & be done right off the bat. I was wanting to install stainless steel braided brake lines & switch over to Motul DOT4 brake fluid, give me your thoughts.
We really like the motul fluids. As for lines, we've been talking to the guys at Stoptech. They are working on getting a car in to take measurements.

In fact, if there's anyone out there willing to volunteer for this (and are local to Stoptech) et us know and we'll pass on your info.

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post #19 of 23 Old 04-16-2009, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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Next in line on the papers for this thread....

Bedding your brakes

First off, I am sorry if my papers come across as simplistic. If you've been into cars for a long while then I'm probably just saying things you already know, but if you're new to cars then hopefully this information will help. Instead of hammering everyone with a bunch of numbers that are difficult to understand I like to keep things simple so everyone can follow along. In this I ask folks to be patient and remember all of us were new to this at one point in time. -Clint

Brakes. They slow down the car. This can be kind of important, and we have to discuss a bit how they do it.

Ask anyone who drives a car, and they'll answer (I would hope) that the brake pads or shoes clamp down on the rotor or drum (that round thingie), and it makes the car stop.

So, what's really happening here? Well, in a nut shell we are converting energy. We're taking kinetic forward (or backward) energy of the car moving down the road, and we're slowing it down by using friction to generate heat.

So, we're making things hot. Sometimes really hot. That heat then dissipates into the surrounding air.

That friction is created by putting a clamping force between two materials, and it's how those materials interact that I'm going to discuss at this time.

We'll stick with pads and rotors for this one as that's going to be easiest to follow since you can go out to your car and look at them pretty easily.

You have a pad. It consists of a backing plate (the metal part on the back), and some kind of ablatable material. That material is made to wear away over time, and depending upon the compound of that material you can get different friction properties.

Some of those properties to consider are:
  • Wear
  • Noise
  • Dust
  • Heat range
  • Initial bite
  • Linearity

I'll be going more into pad compounds in a later paper so we'll keep this one generic in regards to types of pads and compounds. For now just follow along that there's a material on the pad that rubs against the rotor.
This material wears away over time. This is on purpose. When you have two things rubbing on each other something has to give, and in this case this is the give.

So, we have a pad with backing plate, and some kind of friction compound.
Next is the rotors, and these are fairly simple in explanation as well (although not so much in engineering as demonstrated by the thousands of makers out there). In simple terms these are a metal disk that is attached to the tires though some kind of mechanical path.

Let me clarify that Ė the tires are whatís on the ground. They are what determine grip in terms of stop, go, and side to side. They are a vastly important component of any kind of handling characteristics of the car and will be the topic of a rather extensive paper in the future.

In order to stop the car the brakes have to interact with the tires somehow. In our case the rotors spin with the tires, and the pads are in a fixed location relative to the rotor. Also in our case the rotor in housed under the wheel, and is attached to the hub via the wheel studs so the rotor is clamped between the wheel and the hub.

As an aside there are other configurations out there, and historically many have been tried. Some examples are:
  • Inboard brakes with the rotors on the axles.
  • Brakes on the driveshaft
  • Friction compound the spinning bit, and the metal surface clamping down on it.

So, anyway, rotors and what they are. As I said in very simple terms they are metal disks that the friction surface of the pads rubs on. Rotors can come in a few different configurations. Common are solid and vented. Solid is as the word implies in that itís a disk thatís completely solid. Vented is a little bit different. Think of two disks separated by some pillars to allow an air gap. The vanes for venting can be any number of configurations, and many are specific to who makes the rotors and their intended purpose.
As for materials on rotors thereís a few different ones out there. Cast Grey Iron (CGI), Stainless steel, carbon ceramic, cobalt steel (not really used much, and personally Iíd like to play with it someday), silica carbide doped steel.

In our case, and for a majority of folks out there, weíll be dealing with CGI. If you start digging into brakes and CGI youíll find that for the cost of the material, and how long itís been around itís actually pretty darned impressive. Perhaps thatís why itís been around for so long.
Further on rotors is the surface type. Thereí s a boggling array of surface types out there, but they all boil down to a few basic types and variations of them. Those are:
  • Plain faces
  • Slotted
  • Cross drilled
  • ďWaveĒ style

Iíll be doing a paper on these later on, but for now weíll just call a rotor a rotor.

So, here we have a rotor, and itís function in brakes is to do two things. First, hold heat and second, dissipate that heat into the surrounding air.
When I talk about holding heat thatís exactly what I mean. Everything has what is called a heat capacity which is basically how hot you can make it before it starts to fail. Failure in this case being defined as its ability to retain its shape and continue to operate as intended. In the case of rotors that heat capacity is made up on two things Ė material and weight.

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post #20 of 23 Old 04-16-2009, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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Bedding continued...

Different materials have different heat capacities, and more material generally means more mass to have to heat up so it can store more. Now, like all things car related, there is a trade off. You have to think of material in terms of weight you have to carry (and spin) and how much it costs (any of you guys priced carbon ceramic brakes lately? Itís pretty nutty).

So, the rotor has to store the heat that you put into via friction without failing. It also has to shed that heat. In our case shed it into the surrounding air. Thus things like venting, brake ducts, water cooled brakes.
In the end, a rotor needs to do two things Ė store the heat put into it, and shed it quickly. Hopefully it can store enough heat, and shed it quickly enough to meet your needs (again, balance and tradeoffs come into play).

Before I get into this more Iíd also like to point something out on rotors and heat capacity. On our cars you have this really hot, spinning disk sitting there bolted to other bits of the car. Other bits of the car that really donít need any more heat in them for reasons of proper operation.
On that really comes to mind are the wheel bearings. Listen those have a tough enough time as it is without our pumping more heat into them from the rotor thatís right next to them.

So, youíve got this rotor thatís really good at storing and transferring heat. You need some way of keeping that heat from transferring to the center of the rotor (known as the hat) because as more heat gets to the hat the more will transfer to other bits. So, thereís this neat thing called a heat dam. Itís simply a thinner section of metal between the rotor friction surface and the hat. This cuts down on the heat transfer. In fact, weíve seen some cheap just rotors out there (coughebaycough) that donít have that heat dam. Want to know if those shiny $5 rotors are really junk? Look for that first.

So, now on to more brake bedding, and no more useless chatter. Bedding brakes serves two purposes (well did serve two). Many years ago pad compounds were made with an organic binder. That binder would ďoutgasĒ making a gas shield between the rotor surface and the pad. Think of floating on air. Not much friction in that so you would bed the pads to burn off those binders.

THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE.

Organic binders have not been used in pads for a very very long time.
The other purpose of bedding brakes is to put a thin layer of the pad material into the pores of the rotor. Despite the rotor being metal itís still porous, and brakes work best when thereís some of that friction material on both surfaces (the pad and the rotor).

The goal in bedding your brakes is to do this as evenly as possible. If you do it unevenly then you get deposits. These deposits are what make the brakes shimmy, and your steering wheel jitter when youíre on the brakes. Typically it is NOT ďwarpedĒ rotors as the rotor is not really warped, but simply uneven material on the friction surface.

So, you need to put an even layer of pad material on the rotor surface. Hereís the technique weíve been using for years with good success.
  • 1) Find a road where there is little traffic, plenty of runoff room, and give yourself some time. Rush hour on the interstate is NOT the time to do this.
  • 2) Try not to come to a full stop. Should you need to then do it gently, and use just enough pedal pressure to keep the car from rolling once you have it stopped.
  • 3) Get the car up to 30 and then using light pedal pressure slow the car down to 10. Do not stop. Do this three times.
  • 4) Drive for a few minutes to cool everything then repeat step 3.
  • 5) Get the car up to 45 and use medium pedal pressure and slow the car to 10. Do this three times.
  • 6) Drive the car for a few minutes to cool everything then repeat step 5.
  • 7) Get the car to 55 and use medium pressure down to 5. Do this 3 times.
  • 8) Drive for at least 10 minutes to cool everything.
  • 9) Get the car to 55 and use hard pedal pressure down to 5. Do this 3 times.
  • 10) Drive for at least 15 minutes to cool everything.
  • 11) Itís gonna stink. Thatís ok.

Now, thereís the question of when to do this.
  • 1) Whenever you change pads or rotors.
  • 2) After you have the rotors turned.
  • 3) When you get a new car (you remembered to do this after checking all the fluids right?)
  • 4) When you brakes start to jitter. Instead of turning the rotors try this first to see if you can even out the deposits. You could save yourself some money.

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